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Re: Eclair Cameras: T-max versus 7245

Hi Julian,
I was refering to skipping the bleach process (or most of it) while processing a black and white print made from a black and white negative. The Bleach step in processing removes the silver from the print or negative.
I'm familiar with using this process on color negative and color prints. This was done to great effect on films like Delicatessen and Seven. By skipping the bleach and leaving more silver on the film print, it makes the blacks deeper, increases contrast, and desaturates the color. This makes the color film take on more of the qualities of black and white film.
I've never heard of anyone doing this with Black and White film prints, but I believe it would give the print more contrast and richer blacks. However, I don't think you could skip the bleach all together since the silver is removed from the exposed areas of the print making them clear while the darker areas retain more silver since they received less exposure.
You also mentioned printing a black and white negative to a color print. This process is always a compromise and you can never really acheive a neutral black and white image. the color print can either be color corrected warmer toned or cooler toned. I've never seen a bleach bypassed color print from a black and white negative. If you see any black and white shots in bleach bypassed color films, this could give you an idea. The result would still give you more contrast, richer blacks and the color tone would be more desaturated. 

I hope this is helpful and not confusing.

-Ian





From: Julian Williamson <julian3rd@earthlink.net>
Reply-To: EclairACL@topica.com
To: EclairACL@topica.com
Subject: Re: Eclair Cameras: T-max versus 7245
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:51:37 -0500

Ian:

Are you talking about bleach-bypassing a B&W print?  I'm most familiar with
the still B&W process and didn't realize that B&W prints were "bleached".
Could you explain?

Or were you talking about bleach bypassing a color print of a b&w negative,
which brings me to my next question:  Who has printed B&W negative to a
color printstock, and what does it look like, especailly if bleach-bypassed? 
I'm looking for a contrasty, warmish tone from a black and white negative
and wonder how printing to color printstock would perform.

Thanks in advance,
julian

> From: Ian  <i_turpen@hotmail.com>
> Reply-To: EclairACL@topica.com
> Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 11:52:42 -0700
> To: EclairACL@topica.com
> Subject: Re: Eclair Cameras: T-max versus 7245
>
> If you wanted to retain more silver, you could bleach bypass the B&W print > or use a scalable process to skip 50% of the bleach, which would give you 
> better blacks and more contrast.
>
> I've never read of anyone doing this with B&W.
>
> Alpha Cine in Seattle doesn't charge a set-up fee for this, but they don't 
> offer a scalable process.
>
> When I was the Head Processor at Bono Film in Virginia, we processed some > Nike commercials that were shot on Optical Soundtrack Filmstock which was 
> high contrast and low ASA, but wasn't as extreme as Hi-Con or Kodalith.
>
> I always liked the look of Black & White Reversal compared to Negative which 
> always looked milkier to me.
>
> I think anything shot with more lights at a lower ASA rating is always going > to look richer and more resemble technicolor, except for the color dyes they 
> used.
>
> -Ian
>
>> From: Leo Vale <leoavale@yahoo.com>
>
>
>> Reply-To: EclairACL@topica.com
>> To: EclairACL@topica.com
>> Subject: Re: Eclair Cameras: T-max versus 7245
>> Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:50:35 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>
>> --- Mark <super16acl@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Issues of grain aside ... I believe that real B&W
>>> film, photographed and lit
>>> correctly for B&W contrast, has a unique look when
>>> projected that can't be
>>> duplicated when color neg is printed in B&W. Perhaps
>>> I'm being too Artsy here.
>> --- I'll buy that about the B/W.  If nothing else,
>> there's the use of color filters for fine tonal
>> control.  You can't really use that on color stock for
>> a B/W print or transfer.
>>
>>> All I know is that when I see an original 35mm print
>>> of Citizen Kane, or the B&W
>>> Nykvist/Bergman films of the 50s, there has been
>>> nothing like that look to
>>> come out on the silver screen since the demise of
>>> real B&W, (except perhaps
>>> SHINDLER'S LIST and some of WOODY ALLEN'S MOVIES).
>>
>> --- "Print" and "real B&W" point to the problem.
>> I spent two and a half years restoring Fox Movietone
>> Newsreels, so I got to look at a lot of nitrate fine
>> grains and prints.  Another six years of restoration
>> work gave me a chance to see more nitrates.
>> Modeern B/W prints just don't ccompare, they look so
>> anemic next to a nitrate print.
>> 1000' of nitrate is and feels heavier than 1000' of
>> acetate.  The nitrate has more silver.  That shows on
>> the screen. Velvety blacks and rich tones.
>>
>> Shortly after acetate replaced nitrate, manufacturers
>> drasticly reduced the amount of silver in photographic
>> film.  The way that ASA film speed is determined had
>> to be modified to account for this.  And, of course,
>> the manufacturers have been cutting back on the silver
>> ever since.
>> I suspect that one of the reasons for the richness of
>> the color in three-strip Technicolor negs and even of
>> Eastman color neg from the early 50s is due to the
>> higher silver content.
>>
>> I don't know that anything can be done about this.
>> I'm inclined to think that B/W is a lost art.
>> I also think that all B/W movies should be in 'Scope
>>
>>
>> yours in TohoScope,
>>
>> --- LV
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
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