Gerald or anyone,
Would taking a reading of an 18 percent grey card be a better
comparison
than a bright wall? I think I'll go to the photo store and buy a
grey
card and use that to calibrate my camera's light meter if that
would
work better. It certainly would have been easier if Eclair had
built in
a light meter that you didn't have to calibrate each time--perhaps
they
could've taken a cue from the Canon Scoopic?
Gerald.L.Loessberg-1 wrote:
>
> This is an addendum to the previous. In the Welles method,
according
> the rules of reciprocity the film would have been underexposed
two
> stops. The amount of increase to move the white wall from 18%
> reflectance to actual white density in the film neg. That is a
serious
> problem as it is a borderline, unretrievably-under exposed
negative.
> That is a "you cant fix it in post underexposure".
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gerald.L.Loessberg-1" <jerdog@ou.edu>
> Date: Friday, July 11, 2003 12:29 pm
> Subject: Re: RE: Eclair Cameras: RE: Light Meter Issues
>
> > Dear Michelle
> > You have a good idea but it suffers from a considerably
fateful
> > dilemna. Light meters do not offer exposure data that
repoduces
> > the white wall as white. The information they give sets the
> > exposure so that the white wall is 18% reflectance , neutral
grey.
> > Thus Ansel Adamson?s ?Zone Sytem?. That is why professional
> > still photographers use a grey card to calibrate and
professional
> > cine DP?s use the luminance meter instead of the refectance
> > meter. Most Dp?s in fact will tell you that even the ARRI
built-
> > in meter is questionable and no match for a luminance reading.
> > Thats why we have first AC?s.
> >
> > Your concept may seem to work in your application. But still
the
> > ACL meter is not a light meter it is more like a audio
engineers
> > vu meter. It tells changes in luminance level.
> >
> > To those of you who are listening and are new to the ACL. DO
NOT
> > BE CONFUSED. The ACL has no iris control and is there for, is
in
> > no way automatic.
> >
> > Modern telecine will easily allow up to a two stop change in
> > exposure in post. I am not advocating a fix it in post
attitude.
> > Under exposure should be avoided at all cost but overexposure
of
> > up to two stops is not much of a problem.
> >
> > The ACL meter is pretty worthless sort of like tonsils.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: pmjbacon@netscape.net
> > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2003 8:18 pm
> > Subject: RE: Eclair Cameras: RE: Light Meter Issues
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ... Les Bosher, an ACL egineer for 40years does a super16
> > > conversion that retains the light meter and has a mod that
also
> > > retains the original shutter angle.
> > > Sounds like Eric is an expert in this field after 6
> > > months....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >Gerald you wrote "You cannot set ASA or DIN into this
meter,"
> > but you
> > > >actually can do this by taking a light reading of a bright
> > white wall
> > > >with your meter at, say, 400ASA. Your light meter should
tell
> > > you the
> > > >correct F-stop for this film speed at the shutter speed you
specify> > > >(lets say 1/50th). Assume the reading you got from
the white
> > > wall was
> > > >F5.6. Then you would point your Eclair ACL at the white
wall,
> > > and line
> > > >up the shot the same way you saw it through your personal
light
> > meter> >(if you have one like mine it would be a zoom meter,
but
> > you
> > > could also
> > > >use the reflected type. However, I like to "see" what I'm
> > getting).> >Then you would set your Eclair ACL's lens to F5.6,
and
> > then you would
> > > >adjust the potentiometer on the camera until only the
middle diode
> > > >remains illuminated. You have thereby calculated your
camera
> > for
> > > ASA400>speed film at 1/50th shutter speed--which corresponds
to
> > > 24fps. This
> > > >way you can go out and shoot any footage you like at 24fps,
and
> > know> >that the meter is calculated correctly for this ASA and
> > film
> > > speed as
> > > >long as you aim for the middle diode. But remember with
this
> > method> >that you must only use the light meter when you are
not
> > running film
> > > >through the camera. If you want to adjust the light meter
> > while
> > > film is
> > > >being exposed you must calibrate the meter while having the
> > > shutter in
> > > >motion. In other words, you would point the camera at the
> > white
> > > wall,>set the lens to F5.6, set the camera to 24fps, put the
> > > shutter in motion
> > > >and then adjust the potentiometer. As I said before
however, I
> > > gathered>from my conversation with Bernie O'Doherty that
having
> > > the light meter
> > > >activated when the shutter is in motion can lead to flicker
> > > problems. I
> > > >suggested putting an light meter on/off switch on my camera
so
> > > that I
> > > >could turn off the diodes before putting the shutter in motion.
> > > >
> > > >You can also take a light reading with your camera. On
> > location
> > > say you
> > > >wanted to overexpose your subject by one stop. Point the
> > camera
> > > at the
> > > >subject and adjust your iris until the middle diode lights
up.
> > > Then, if
> > > >for some strange reason your interested, read what the lens
is
> > > set to.
> > > >Let's say it is set to F4.0. If you wanted to overexpose
it by
> > > one stop
> > > >you would have the two red diodes above it light up.
> > > >
> > > >Gerald.L.Loessberg-1 wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Not to cause any grief here but the ACL meter is not a
standard> > > >> reflectance light meter. What it does is tell
you when the
> > > light has
> > > >> changed. Those who have bothered to read the manual on
the
> > ACL
> > > know>> that you have to first read the light of the scene
and
> > then
> > > set the
> > > >> meter in the ACL to zero set. It then tells you haw many
> > stops the
> > > >> light changes as you pan, zoom, whatever. In my opinion
this
> > > isnt worth
> > > >> the price of the leds. You cannot set ASA or DIN into
this
> > > meter and
> > > >> you cannot simply turn it on aim it at something and read
the
> > > exposure.>> It is not a light meter as we know it. It is
more
> > > like a voltage /ohm
> > > >> meter. Whatever that is worth when you are shooting a
scene
> > I dont
> > > >> know.
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: Michael Welle <mwelle@starband.net>
> > > >> Date: Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:53 pm
> > > >> Subject: RE: Eclair Cameras: Light Meter Issues
> > > >>
> > > >> > There are, nevertheless, situations when having an internal
> > > >> > lightmeter
> > > >> > would prove invaluable. Let's say you were walking
down the
> > > >> > street and
> > > >> > you saw a UFO. I can pretty much assure you that you
don't
> > want> >> > to be
> > > >> > taking out your lightmeter and calculating F-Stops at
this
> > > time--
> > > >> > no
> > > >> > matter how much more accurate it would be.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > One of the great things about the Canon Scoopic and its
M
> > and MS
> > > >> > versions were/are the ability for auto iris. Yes, film
snobs> > > >> > around the
> > > >> > world will tell you that you should always be
calculating your
> > > >> > readings
> > > >> > with a light meter--but in the real world the built in
> > lightmeter> >> > solves
> > > >> > tons of problems. I remember being able to do long
tracking> > > >> > shots with
> > > >> > the M or MS because it could compensate when you moved
from an
> > > >> > area of
> > > >> > lightness to darkness instantaneously. How were the
seemingly> > > >> > endless
> > > >> > tracking shots in "Goodfellas," "The Player," and
"Snake Eyes"
> > > >> > accomplished? I can't imagine these being done with
the
> > operator> >> > manually adjusting the iris. Why do all of the
> > leading video
> > > >> > camera
> > > >> > manufacturers put auto iris onto their cameras--because
it
> > makes> >> > shooting much less dicey, gives you less headaches
if
> > in the
> > > >> > opposite
> > > >> > situation you had taken inaccurate readings and it
gives the
> > > >> > inexperienced videographer or filmmaker the ability to
make
> > > movies>> > without having to worry about the painstaking
process
> > > of light
> > > >> > readings.
> > > >> > Yes, in some instances manual light readings may make a
> > slightly> >> > better
> > > >> > exposed picture. But when the pressure is on its often
more> > > >> > reliable to
> > > >> > put your trust into a filmmaking machine rather than
(to
> > > quote the
> > > >> > Sex
> > > >> > Pistols) "a human machine." In essence, auto irises and
> > built-in
> > > >> > meters
> > > >> > add to the democratization in filmmaking.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > While the ACL does not have an automatic lightmeter
like the
> > > >> > Scoopic,
> > > >> > its built in light meter allows you to determine the
light
> > > reading>> > for a
> > > >> > static shot or a shot without much lighting change
> > (although a
> > > >> > safer bet
> > > >> > would be static shots). In a previous post it was
inferred
> > that> >> > reaching up and changing apertures with the Eclair
ACL was
> > > >> > essentially
> > > >> > futile. In order to change F-Stops while the camera is
> > exposing> >> > film
> > > >> > you have to adjust the iris poteniometer while the camera's
> > > >> > shutter is
> > > >> > running (let's say at 24fps). If you calibrate the
meter
> > without> >> > the
> > > >> > camera's shutter moving you will get inaccurate
readings
> > (if you
> > > >> > take
> > > >> > your readings while film is being exposed). If, on the
other> > > >> > hand, you
> > > >> > take readings before the shutter is moving then you should
> > > >> > calibrate the
> > > >> > meter by adjusting the potentiometer without the
shutter in
> > > motion>> > (this
> > > >> > is how I expose film). According to what I understood
from a
> > > >> > conversation with Bernie O'Doherty, having red diodes
activated> > > >> > while
> > > >> > film is running through the camera can lead to flicker
> > problems.> >> > I have
> > > >> > spoken with Bernie about creating an on/off switch for
my
> > camera> >> > which
> > > >> > will allow me to de-activate the light meter after I've
> > taken a
> > > >> > reading
> > > >> > and before I am about to run film through the camera.
I
> > > wonder if
> > > >> > the
> > > >> > previous post entitled EXP ON/OFF switch is related to
this?> > > >> >
> > > >> > Now that I'm clear on all of this, it leaves me with two
> > > >> > questions: 1)
> > > >> > Does the internal light meter go up to ASA 800 or ASA 400?
> > > >> > 2) Does anyone have any other suggestions on how to
make the
> > > >> > internal
> > > >> > light meter work with Super 16?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Since the Eclair ACL is such a light weight compact
camera
> > it
> > > only>> > makes
> > > >> > sense that it should have a built-in light meter. The
> > techs at
> > > >> > Eclair
> > > >> > were smart enough to realize this for Regular 16. Even
if you
> > > >> > dislike
> > > >> > the built-in metering, it would be nice to have others
> > understand> >> > that I
> > > >> > am one voice in this community (who may be among
others)
> > who does
> > > >> > believe in the built in light meter for the reasons
mentioned> > > >> > above.
> > > >> > For people like me, who believes in automation at a
fair
> > > price, It
> > > >> > would
> > > >> > be great to keep the simplicity and democratization of
> > built-in
> > > >> > light
> > > >> > metering as an option for Super 16 with the ACL.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Gerald.L.Loessberg-1 wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > This is only my opinion and there are quite a few
here on
> > > >> > topica, but
> > > >> > > having a light meter that informs the operator that
the
> > > lighting>> > > conditions have changed is not very helpful.
> > While
> > > shooting,>> > what are
> > > >> > > you going to do, reach up there and change apertures,
> > good
> > > luck.>> > Most
> > > >> > > experienced dp´s check their external meter between
shots.> > > >> > Modern
> > > >> > > telecine will let you compensate for minor or for
that matter
> > > >> > even major
> > > >> > > exposure changes inside a take. There is no
replacement for
> > > >> > > understanding exposure and taking a moment to analyze
> > your
> > > scene>> > and
> > > >> > > what your gaffer has done to it. Take the meter out
.
> > If you
> > > >> > want an
> > > >> > > ARRI SR S16 then buy one and quite trying to make
your
> > ACL into
> > > >> > one. The
> > > >> > > ACL when healthy is quieter, lighter and more
flexible
> > than the
> > > >> > SR will
> > > >> > > ever be. Eclair has achieved the sublime in this
camera and
> > > >> > remember
> > > >> > > that the Arri SR was in fact designed after the
Eclair NPR,
> > > >> > neither of
> > > >> > > which is as quite as a healthy ACL. The ACL with the
> > 200´ mag
> > > >> > is the
> > > >> > > smallest professional camera on the market and if it
has been
> > > >> > modified
> > > >> > > properly with Mark´s Gold kit, ( he still has some
> > > available) it
> > > >> > is the
> > > >> > > coolest. Whatever cool is worth. Have your camera
> > > serviced by
> > > >> > a good
> > > >> > > tech, converted and start shooting. That is what the
> > > camera was
> > > >> > > designed for, shooting.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> > > From: Mark <super16acl@aol.com>
> > > >> > > Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2003 8:00 pm
> > > >> > > Subject: Re: Eclair Cameras: Light Meter Issues
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > It would certainly be a pain to try to retain the
light
> > meter> >> > with
> > > >> > > > a Super-16
> > > >> > > > conversion, and frankly I've never done it. But I can
> > > >> > visualize
> > > >> > > > how it would
> > > >> > > > be accomplished.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > It could involve replacing the convex lens on the
prism
> > > with a
> > > >> > > > longer one,
> > > >> > > > using a wide angle diopter on the viewfinder to see
> > both the
> > > >> > light
> > > >> > > > meter and the
> > > >> > > > full super-16 frame, and ultimately the circle in
the
> > finder> >> > that
> > > >> > > > represents
> > > >> > > > where the reading is taken would be off-center of
the
> > > image. I
> > > >> > > > gave
> > > >> > > > suggestions in the HD-144 manual for those who
wanted
> > to try,
> > > >> > but
> > > >> > > > I think it may fall
> > > >> > > > into the category of either "Life is too short" or
"the
> > cost> >> > is
> > > >> > > > more than the
> > > >> > > > camera is worth." But check with Bernie O'Doherty.
Also,> > > >> > August
> > > >> > > > Loessberg has
> > > >> > > > been playing with enlarging the field of view
through the
> > > >> > finder,
> > > >> > > > which would
> > > >> > > > be a major help. Mark.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Michael Welle
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Michael Welle
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
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>
Michael Welle
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