This is an addendum to the previous. In the Welles method, according
the rules of reciprocity the film would have been underexposed two
stops. The amount of increase to move the white wall from 18%
reflectance to actual white density in the film neg. That is a serious
problem as it is a borderline, unretrievably-under exposed negative.
That is a "you cant fix it in post underexposure".
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald.L.Loessberg-1" <jerdog@ou.edu>
Date: Friday, July 11, 2003 12:29 pm
Subject: Re: RE: Eclair Cameras: RE: Light Meter Issues
> Dear Michelle
> You have a good idea but it suffers from a considerably fateful
> dilemna. Light meters do not offer exposure data that repoduces
> the white wall as white. The information they give sets the
> exposure so that the white wall is 18% reflectance , neutral grey.
> Thus Ansel Adamson’s “Zone Sytem”. That is why professional
> still photographers use a grey card to calibrate and professional
> cine DP’s use the luminance meter instead of the refectance
> meter. Most Dp’s in fact will tell you that even the ARRI built-
> in meter is questionable and no match for a luminance reading.
> Thats why we have first AC’s.
>
> Your concept may seem to work in your application. But still the
> ACL meter is not a light meter it is more like a audio engineers
> vu meter. It tells changes in luminance level.
>
> To those of you who are listening and are new to the ACL. DO NOT
> BE CONFUSED. The ACL has no iris control and is there for, is in
> no way automatic.
>
> Modern telecine will easily allow up to a two stop change in
> exposure in post. I am not advocating a fix it in post attitude.
> Under exposure should be avoided at all cost but overexposure of
> up to two stops is not much of a problem.
>
> The ACL meter is pretty worthless sort of like tonsils.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: pmjbacon@netscape.net
> Date: Thursday, July 10, 2003 8:18 pm
> Subject: RE: Eclair Cameras: RE: Light Meter Issues
>
> >
> >
> >
> > ... Les Bosher, an ACL egineer for 40years does a super16
> > conversion that retains the light meter and has a mod that also
> > retains the original shutter angle.
> > Sounds like Eric is an expert in this field after 6
> > months....
> >
> >
> >
> > >Gerald you wrote "You cannot set ASA or DIN into this meter,"
> but you
> > >actually can do this by taking a light reading of a bright
> white wall
> > >with your meter at, say, 400ASA. Your light meter should tell
> > you the
> > >correct F-stop for this film speed at the shutter speed you specify
> > >(lets say 1/50th). Assume the reading you got from the white
> > wall was
> > >F5.6. Then you would point your Eclair ACL at the white wall,
> > and line
> > >up the shot the same way you saw it through your personal light
> meter> >(if you have one like mine it would be a zoom meter, but
> you
> > could also
> > >use the reflected type. However, I like to "see" what I'm
> getting).> >Then you would set your Eclair ACL's lens to F5.6, and
> then you would
> > >adjust the potentiometer on the camera until only the middle diode
> > >remains illuminated. You have thereby calculated your camera
> for
> > ASA400>speed film at 1/50th shutter speed--which corresponds to
> > 24fps. This
> > >way you can go out and shoot any footage you like at 24fps, and
> know> >that the meter is calculated correctly for this ASA and
> film
> > speed as
> > >long as you aim for the middle diode. But remember with this
> method> >that you must only use the light meter when you are not
> running film
> > >through the camera. If you want to adjust the light meter
> while
> > film is
> > >being exposed you must calibrate the meter while having the
> > shutter in
> > >motion. In other words, you would point the camera at the
> white
> > wall,>set the lens to F5.6, set the camera to 24fps, put the
> > shutter in motion
> > >and then adjust the potentiometer. As I said before however, I
> > gathered>from my conversation with Bernie O'Doherty that having
> > the light meter
> > >activated when the shutter is in motion can lead to flicker
> > problems. I
> > >suggested putting an light meter on/off switch on my camera so
> > that I
> > >could turn off the diodes before putting the shutter in motion.
> > >
> > >You can also take a light reading with your camera. On
> location
> > say you
> > >wanted to overexpose your subject by one stop. Point the
> camera
> > at the
> > >subject and adjust your iris until the middle diode lights up.
> > Then, if
> > >for some strange reason your interested, read what the lens is
> > set to.
> > >Let's say it is set to F4.0. If you wanted to overexpose it by
> > one stop
> > >you would have the two red diodes above it light up.
> > >
> > >Gerald.L.Loessberg-1 wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Not to cause any grief here but the ACL meter is not a standard
> > >> reflectance light meter. What it does is tell you when the
> > light has
> > >> changed. Those who have bothered to read the manual on the
> ACL
> > know>> that you have to first read the light of the scene and
> then
> > set the
> > >> meter in the ACL to zero set. It then tells you haw many
> stops the
> > >> light changes as you pan, zoom, whatever. In my opinion this
> > isnt worth
> > >> the price of the leds. You cannot set ASA or DIN into this
> > meter and
> > >> you cannot simply turn it on aim it at something and read the
> > exposure.>> It is not a light meter as we know it. It is more
> > like a voltage /ohm
> > >> meter. Whatever that is worth when you are shooting a scene
> I dont
> > >> know.
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: Michael Welle <mwelle@starband.net>
> > >> Date: Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:53 pm
> > >> Subject: RE: Eclair Cameras: Light Meter Issues
> > >>
> > >> > There are, nevertheless, situations when having an internal
> > >> > lightmeter
> > >> > would prove invaluable. Let's say you were walking down the
> > >> > street and
> > >> > you saw a UFO. I can pretty much assure you that you don't
> want> >> > to be
> > >> > taking out your lightmeter and calculating F-Stops at this
> > time--
> > >> > no
> > >> > matter how much more accurate it would be.
> > >> >
> > >> > One of the great things about the Canon Scoopic and its M
> and MS
> > >> > versions were/are the ability for auto iris. Yes, film snobs
> > >> > around the
> > >> > world will tell you that you should always be calculating your
> > >> > readings
> > >> > with a light meter--but in the real world the built in
> lightmeter> >> > solves
> > >> > tons of problems. I remember being able to do long tracking
> > >> > shots with
> > >> > the M or MS because it could compensate when you moved from an
> > >> > area of
> > >> > lightness to darkness instantaneously. How were the seemingly
> > >> > endless
> > >> > tracking shots in "Goodfellas," "The Player," and "Snake Eyes"
> > >> > accomplished? I can't imagine these being done with the
> operator> >> > manually adjusting the iris. Why do all of the
> leading video
> > >> > camera
> > >> > manufacturers put auto iris onto their cameras--because it
> makes> >> > shooting much less dicey, gives you less headaches if
> in the
> > >> > opposite
> > >> > situation you had taken inaccurate readings and it gives the
> > >> > inexperienced videographer or filmmaker the ability to make
> > movies>> > without having to worry about the painstaking process
> > of light
> > >> > readings.
> > >> > Yes, in some instances manual light readings may make a
> slightly> >> > better
> > >> > exposed picture. But when the pressure is on its often more
> > >> > reliable to
> > >> > put your trust into a filmmaking machine rather than (to
> > quote the
> > >> > Sex
> > >> > Pistols) "a human machine." In essence, auto irises and
> built-in
> > >> > meters
> > >> > add to the democratization in filmmaking.
> > >> >
> > >> > While the ACL does not have an automatic lightmeter like the
> > >> > Scoopic,
> > >> > its built in light meter allows you to determine the light
> > reading>> > for a
> > >> > static shot or a shot without much lighting change
> (although a
> > >> > safer bet
> > >> > would be static shots). In a previous post it was inferred
> that> >> > reaching up and changing apertures with the Eclair ACL was
> > >> > essentially
> > >> > futile. In order to change F-Stops while the camera is
> exposing> >> > film
> > >> > you have to adjust the iris poteniometer while the camera's
> > >> > shutter is
> > >> > running (let's say at 24fps). If you calibrate the meter
> without> >> > the
> > >> > camera's shutter moving you will get inaccurate readings
> (if you
> > >> > take
> > >> > your readings while film is being exposed). If, on the other
> > >> > hand, you
> > >> > take readings before the shutter is moving then you should
> > >> > calibrate the
> > >> > meter by adjusting the potentiometer without the shutter in
> > motion>> > (this
> > >> > is how I expose film). According to what I understood from a
> > >> > conversation with Bernie O'Doherty, having red diodes activated
> > >> > while
> > >> > film is running through the camera can lead to flicker
> problems.> >> > I have
> > >> > spoken with Bernie about creating an on/off switch for my
> camera> >> > which
> > >> > will allow me to de-activate the light meter after I've
> taken a
> > >> > reading
> > >> > and before I am about to run film through the camera. I
> > wonder if
> > >> > the
> > >> > previous post entitled EXP ON/OFF switch is related to this?
> > >> >
> > >> > Now that I'm clear on all of this, it leaves me with two
> > >> > questions: 1)
> > >> > Does the internal light meter go up to ASA 800 or ASA 400?
> > >> > 2) Does anyone have any other suggestions on how to make the
> > >> > internal
> > >> > light meter work with Super 16?
> > >> >
> > >> > Since the Eclair ACL is such a light weight compact camera
> it
> > only>> > makes
> > >> > sense that it should have a built-in light meter. The
> techs at
> > >> > Eclair
> > >> > were smart enough to realize this for Regular 16. Even if you
> > >> > dislike
> > >> > the built-in metering, it would be nice to have others
> understand> >> > that I
> > >> > am one voice in this community (who may be among others)
> who does
> > >> > believe in the built in light meter for the reasons mentioned
> > >> > above.
> > >> > For people like me, who believes in automation at a fair
> > price, It
> > >> > would
> > >> > be great to keep the simplicity and democratization of
> built-in
> > >> > light
> > >> > metering as an option for Super 16 with the ACL.
> > >> >
> > >> > Gerald.L.Loessberg-1 wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > This is only my opinion and there are quite a few here on
> > >> > topica, but
> > >> > > having a light meter that informs the operator that the
> > lighting>> > > conditions have changed is not very helpful.
> While
> > shooting,>> > what are
> > >> > > you going to do, reach up there and change apertures,
> good
> > luck.>> > Most
> > >> > > experienced dp´s check their external meter between shots.
> > >> > Modern
> > >> > > telecine will let you compensate for minor or for that matter
> > >> > even major
> > >> > > exposure changes inside a take. There is no replacement for
> > >> > > understanding exposure and taking a moment to analyze
> your
> > scene>> > and
> > >> > > what your gaffer has done to it. Take the meter out .
> If you
> > >> > want an
> > >> > > ARRI SR S16 then buy one and quite trying to make your
> ACL into
> > >> > one. The
> > >> > > ACL when healthy is quieter, lighter and more flexible
> than the
> > >> > SR will
> > >> > > ever be. Eclair has achieved the sublime in this camera and
> > >> > remember
> > >> > > that the Arri SR was in fact designed after the Eclair NPR,
> > >> > neither of
> > >> > > which is as quite as a healthy ACL. The ACL with the
> 200´ mag
> > >> > is the
> > >> > > smallest professional camera on the market and if it has been
> > >> > modified
> > >> > > properly with Mark´s Gold kit, ( he still has some
> > available) it
> > >> > is the
> > >> > > coolest. Whatever cool is worth. Have your camera
> > serviced by
> > >> > a good
> > >> > > tech, converted and start shooting. That is what the
> > camera was
> > >> > > designed for, shooting.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > > From: Mark <super16acl@aol.com>
> > >> > > Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2003 8:00 pm
> > >> > > Subject: Re: Eclair Cameras: Light Meter Issues
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > It would certainly be a pain to try to retain the light
> meter> >> > with
> > >> > > > a Super-16
> > >> > > > conversion, and frankly I've never done it. But I can
> > >> > visualize
> > >> > > > how it would
> > >> > > > be accomplished.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > It could involve replacing the convex lens on the prism
> > with a
> > >> > > > longer one,
> > >> > > > using a wide angle diopter on the viewfinder to see
> both the
> > >> > light
> > >> > > > meter and the
> > >> > > > full super-16 frame, and ultimately the circle in the
> finder> >> > that
> > >> > > > represents
> > >> > > > where the reading is taken would be off-center of the
> > image. I
> > >> > > > gave
> > >> > > > suggestions in the HD-144 manual for those who wanted
> to try,
> > >> > but
> > >> > > > I think it may fall
> > >> > > > into the category of either "Life is too short" or "the
> cost> >> > is
> > >> > > > more than the
> > >> > > > camera is worth." But check with Bernie O'Doherty. Also,
> > >> > August
> > >> > > > Loessberg has
> > >> > > > been playing with enlarging the field of view through the
> > >> > finder,
> > >> > > > which would
> > >> > > > be a major help. Mark.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Michael Welle
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Michael Welle
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
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